When meat went Tweet

Welcome to the first ever MTJ TwitterDebate. We’ll be looking at the issues surrounding sustainable meat production...

MTJ_tweet
So, let’s start with the issues surrounding consumption: WWF and others are targeting efforts on the consumer end...

MTJ_tweet
…they claim global solution to sustainable livestock production can only be achieved by reduction in demand at consumer level.

MTJ_tweet
Is that a practical solution? Can reduced consumption tackle the problems some claim are posed by livestock production?

dalesbutchers
Small butchers shops are sustainable, it’s the multinational supermarkets that put a strain on resources.

sausagekinguk
I think it has got to be about reducing “bad” consumption

Marc-Frederic
Ensuring we eat all of the animal makes more sense. After all, we can all see charcuterie is on the increase, train more butchers

sausagekinguk
And this needs to go hand in hand with training/educating consumers

Dalesbutchers
I agree @sausagekinguk would you rather feed a kid a chicken fillet or some reconstituted rubbish that looks like chicken?

Hughesy40
Demand is? Western, emerging or developing countries? Demand dynamics both a problem and solution depending

MTJ_tweet
Can we qualify “bad consumption”? And is small necessarily better?

EblexTweets
The beef and sheep production industry is already working hard to improve efficiency and reduce environmental impact.

Dalesbutchers
How can we reduce consumption when the population keeps growing?

sausagekinguk
@MTJ_tweet The two chickens for £4 or whatever it is some shops pump out. It has to be quality over something loaded with water.

hughesy40
This debate has to be a global one. Localising it is not addressing the main issue surrounding farming for food and as a business

sausagekinguk
Part of the problem is the proportion of our income we now expect to spend on food. Hasn’t it dropped from 30% to 10% or so?

hughesy40
@sausagekinguk @MTJ_tweet Fresh chicken is not pumped with water

sausagekinguk
@hughesy40 Bovine and porcine protein powders is what I am referring to...

EblexTweets
Reducing consumption is too simplistic. People must eat. Meat will be replaced by another protein, which will have its own cost.

MTJ_tweet
Quality is an issue, but does it have an impact on environmental concerns?

MTJ_tweet
Tackling the issue on a global basis is key, but if we can’t work together on a national basis, is global co-operation possible?

dalesbutchers
@MTJ_tweet Humans are the only impact on the environment

MarcFrederic
@sausagekinguk If some of us eat to budget i.e. 30% of our income, then many of us are eating poorly, aren’t we?

sausagekinguk
@MarcFrederic Yes, very possibly, I just think we expecfood to be cheap and my concern is multinationals squeeze producers...

sausagekinguk
@MarcFrederic ...which in turn means they have to cut corners and be less green

rothburybutcher
Maybe so, re spend, but we as producer/retailers need to be proactive in increasing customer spend and it’s not easy these days.

FoodEthicsNews
Big questions, and a debate that’s urgently needed. FEC & WWF-UK are talking to producer orgs about these issues.

qmscotland
Growing world populations mean individual countries face differing food security problems…

qmscotland
…so getting global agreement will be difficult but global co-operation to improve technical efficiencies…

qmscotland
…is something that should be pursued.

Westaways
Sustainabilty for the whole chain is the issue without sacrificing welfare and reducing carbon. We need a clearer vision how…

MarcFrederic
@sausagekinguk So each time a s/mkt has a special offer, it is we who are guilty of squeezing the producer are we not?

sausagekinguk
@MarcFrederic Very possibly

MTJ_tweet
Surely, sustainable models are possible across all levels, big or small – are we all doing enough on this though?

dalesbutchers
Today is supposedly ‘Meat Free Monday’ so should I close my shop on Mondays to force people not to eat meat?

sausagekinguk
At one point weren’t the gov talking about forcing supermarkets to sell 25%+ “locally produced” food?

FoodEthicsNews
We found prod orgs willing to explore whether diets that lower GHGs (inc. lower meat diets) really do threaten profitability

MTJ_tweet
But does local = green/sustainable?

sausagekinguk
@MTJ_tweet Possibly, but a start would be cutting the carbon footprint and encouraging people to eat seasonally.

MarcFrederic
@qmscotland Yes that is a big keyword, we have to improve without compromise…

MTJ_tweet
Interesting point from @foodethicsnews: Does lower consumption mean lower profits?

MarcFrederic
@FoodEthicsNews  argh someone has mentioned I believe what is the cancer to all of this – that word profit...

MTJ_tweet
@sausagekinguk Does that seasonality affect meat however (lamb obv exception)?

AlistairDriver
Is there any evidence, meat industry folk, that consumers are responding to messages to eat less meat to save planet/themselves?

thomsok
Buying locally/from UK at least let’s look at incorporating more sustainability into Red Tractor or Scotch Lamb designations

britishpoultry
@foodethicsnews rightly reminds us that economics is an often ignored pillar of sustainability. Also large v small, a red herring

Westaways
Is the answer compulsory Carbon Foodprint auditing, then taxation to drive compliance?

EblexTweets
Putting lower consumption aside, research shows better environmental performance goes hand in hand with better economic performance

EblexTweets
@AlistairDriver Our research shows environmental concerns are not (yet) a driver of buying habits

Westaways
Also why not Audit Public Sector Purchasing on Social Return on Investment, we deserve a right on how our money is spent.

thomsok
I am not sure that further audits and taxation are the tools for this!

EblexTweets
@AlistairDriver Only 3% of people strongly agree that the climate change debate has influenced the way they purchase food.

MTJ_tweet
So, @eblexTweets, do we need to educate consumers to make it a higher priority, and drive demand from that end?

sausagekinguk
@MTJ_tweet @eblexTweets Absolutely. They need to know EXACTLY what they are eating.

Westaways
@thomsok I would agree with you in many areas… but how else can this be driven? Otherwise it will be like herding cats.

bfpeas
@EblexTweets Could you realistically see people eating less meat to save the planet. I have my doubts.

MTJ_tweet
Is the focus on consumption wrong, given the amount of inefficiency in the production process still? Should we tackle that first?

Will_FW
RT @bfpeas @EblexTweets Ask that same question to British retailers & think answer could be quite different…

EblexTweets
@MTJ_tweet There is information there for consumers to make informed choices. Other things are simply bigger drivers, eg cost

dalesbutchers
@bfpeas @EblexTweets Mine too! The reduction in the animals in the country would spark formation of more groups like the RBST

EblexTweets
@bfpeas Many people seem to think so, Paul McCartney for instance…

iTweetMeat
Oh, I stumbled upon the… Good stuff!

SpaLighting
How on earth do we square the circle on the land use debate? Acres for meat v acres for grain.

iTweetMeat
In many instances no. RT @MTJ_tweet: But does local = green/sustainable?

thomsok
@Westaways Need to promote benefits of buying from people such as yourself re: local jobs, economics, quality and good practice.

brandibuzzard
Green, maybe yes. Sustainable, probably not RT @MTJ_tweet: But does local = green/sustainable?

iTweetMeat
Animal production receives all of the attention it seems. What about the distribution system, and how much meat consumers waste?

dalesbutchers
@brandibuzzard @MTJ_tweet Why not sustainable?

MrVikkis
RT @dalesbutchers: Small butchers shops are sustainable; it’s the multinational supermarkets that put a strain on resources.

SpaLighting
@MTJ_tweet I want us all to have fresh meat. But your point about efficiency brings in the productive use of land debate.

brandibuzzard
@dalesbutchers Local is often associated with small/old-fashioned. Which is not always sustainable.

iTweetMeat
A fantastic analysis of how #local isn’t always what it’s cracked up to be – http://psu.ag/gIn2Nd

bfpeas
@EblexTweets Aren’t his views more to do with animal welfare issues than climate change?

EblexTweets
@bfpeas Meat Free Monday is about climate change message.

dalesbutchers
@brandibuzzard You obviously haven’t been to our shop then. Our produce is sourced from within 30 miles.

FoodEthicsNews
@MTJ_tweet To meet 80% greenhouse gas cuts by 2050 emissions from food consumption must be cut by 70%…

FoodEthicsNews
…This’ll need technological AND behavioural changes, inc eating less meat and wasting less food.

iTweetMeat
@FoodEthicsNews Exactly. re: wasting less food. Tech change easier to achieve than behavioural change?

MTJ_tweet
@SpaLighting Indeed, and what’s your feeling on that? Should we be devoting more land to crop production? Less to livestock?

dalesbutchers
Interesting read http://www.good.is/post/reasonable-people-disagree-about-meat/

bfpeas
@EblexTweets I know, but does this get the support of millions or a few hundred thousand? Good to talk:)

SpaLighting
@dalesbutchers With you on that for sure. Just highlighting the sheer scale of resource when the big numbers are viewed.

SpaLighting
@MTJ_tweet Then it comes to quality of life v feed the world - or am i wrong?. Don’t shoot the messenger please!

MTJ_tweet
@SpaLighting and that then raises the question of sustainable populations…

thomsok
@MTJ_tweet @spalighting now there is a huge challenge as far as potential impact on environment!

SpaLighting
@MTJ_tweet Absolutely. And try having a debate on that one in public! The elephant in the room (or no room for the elephant!)

MTJ_tweet
So, does genetic modification pose a solution to the question of sustainable meat production?

britishpoultry
Definitely need to consider the benefits of GM feed options. Selective breeding also a must to feed large demand.

OliverDowding
@MTJ_tweet NO! GM still needs oil (many stages of food chain), water, phosphates etc. Plus people will still be eating too much.

Butcher_Dlish
I spoke recently at Spanish meat conference where 1 professor suggested ways to combat GHG was to intensify production.

OliverDowding
@MTJ_tweet @SpaLighting Less arable crops to feed animals = more for crops to feed people direct or extensive grass-fed livestock

MTJ_tweet
Does GM not offer solutions to break dependency on oil, further down the line on feed?

MTJ_tweet
And genetic developments on livestock have proved interesting, should more be done on this?

MTJ_tweet
RT @Enviromeat @OliverDowding @MTJ_tweet @SpaLighting We have a grass based system in Aus. What’s your definition of sustainable?

OliverDowding
Min net nutrient and soil loss to planet, fit people not costing healthcare systems crazy money

MTJ_tweet
@butcher_Dlish Raises good point on extensive vs intensive. What’s people’s thoughts – can intensive offer a solution?

britishpoultry
You’re asking the wrong question @MTJ_tweet, it should be: can extensive really offer a sustainable solution?

MTJ_tweet
@britishpoultry And the answer?

britishpoultry
@MTJ_tweet Not one answer but food, like utilitarianism, should be judged by the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

MTJ_tweet
Coming back to consumption, a question for @FoodEthicsNews, what’s a sustainable level of consumption on meat?

MarcFrederic
Sustainability is going back to the days of hunting wild boar, Simon of @TheRealBoar what’s your comment?

MTJ_tweet
@MarcFrederic I’m not sure a move back to the “you eat what you kill” model is practical, but mght imprve the shopping experience

FoodEthicsNews
@MTJ_tweet Good question! Not sure we’ve got the answer, but WWF-UK says....

FoodEthicsNews
...ghg emissions from food prod and consumpt must be reduced by 25% by 2020...

FoodEthicsNews
...& their rept How Low Can We Go http://tinyurl.com/67j8hyo identifies ways to achieve that, inc eating less meat and dairy.

MarcFrederic
@MTJ_tweet Lol,I like that! I have to say Rustling will become more commonplace, unless we sort this out & Robin Hood may return

MTJ_tweet
@FoodEthicsNews But is there a figure on that? Are you suggesting telling consumers to eat one steak less? Or cut the mince?

delightfulrepas
@MTJ_tweet @MarcFrederic Haven’t sorted out what this is about yet, but I’ll starve if I have to take up hunting!

MarcFrederic
@delightfulrepas @MTJ_tweet With respect Jean, but people like yourself could be part the answer to solving this debate, right?

delightfulrepas
@MarcFrederic @MTJ_tweet You know I’m all about organic, sustainable, grass-fed, not wasting food or anything, the planet, etc.

MTJ_tweet
@delightfulrepas you raise the organic question – does organic have any role to play in sustainable meat production?

delightfulrepas
@MarcFrederic @MTJ_tweet GM (GMO) should not be allowed anywhere! It’s just commonsense, isn’t it?

porkforcaterers
@MTJ_tweet Sustainable=profitable. Green=desirable and increasingly pig farming is ‘green’ but where are the profits?

MTJ_tweet
@delightfulrepas Why no to GM, if (if being the caveat) it offers genuine solutions for sustainable food production?

MTJ_tweet
@porkforcaterers Good points – any production has to sustainable on an economic level.

porkforcaterers
Speaking with @Westaways he is doing the whole sustainable well, but wants a better way to measure and set KPIs

britishpoultry
@MTJ_tweet Organic remains niche, albeit dedicated, market. It is a luxury not a staple.

delightfulrepas
@MTJ_tweet If it does indeed offer solutions, they are solutions only for the moment, they are not sustainable!

delightfulrepas
@MTJ_tweet An unsustainable “solution” cannot advance sustainable meat production!  #NoGMO

MTJ_tweet
@delightfulrepas Is it unsustainable? In what way?

delightfulrepas
@MTJ_tweet I will leave it to another to explain how GM is unsustainable. @michaelpollan  #NoGMO

delightfulrepas
Food free of pesticide and herbicide residues, hormones and antibiotics should not be a luxury!

MTJ_tweet
@delightfulrepas So, what could be a sustainable model?

BlythburghPork
@MTJ_tweet Ref extensive v intensive. There is room for both, the market demands both. However, both need to be more efficient.

NFUStweets
Livestock in Scotland r critical to management of carbon-rich soils. And the carbon in our soils is equal to 200 yrs of emissions

Martyn_Leek
Shouldn’t we be concentrating on issues like food wastage and production efficiency before tackling consumption?

EblexTweets
Interesting point on intensive v extensive. Intensive gives lower emissions but raises other issues…

EblexTweets
…like perceived animal welfare problems and the overall industry image – “industrial” farming rather than animals in fields.

MTJ_tweet
@BlythburghPork The market also demands products which are bad for the environment – should we be following those signals?

EblexTweets
There has to be a balancing point between GHG emissions, food security, best land use, local, animal welfare etc

EblexTweets
This is why looking at issues in isolation, like eat less meat to save the planet, are unlikely to ultimately achieve the aim

BlythburghPork
@MTJ_tweet If there is demand for a product, people will produce it, yet all livestock farmers should be considering the ....
BlythburghPork
@MTJ_tweet …envirnoment by reducing carbon footprint, there are other factors though such as welfare, cost of production etc.

OliverDowding
@MTJ_tweet @BlythburghPork “Market” demands prods bad for the env. Does not = ok to produce.

dalesbutchers
@iTweetMeat The main difference here is the space and climate!

EblexTweets
@MTJ_tweet The GHG action plan launched last week shows industry working together to tackle emissions issue http://tiny.cc/u10ys

BlythburghPork
@OliverDowding @MTJ_tweet You could say the same about driving a car or going abroad but people still do it. Having said this…

BlythburghPork
@OliverDowding @MTJ_tweet …all livestock farmers I know are working towards more sustainable production.

EblexTweets
@MTJ_tweet However, looking at emissions, welfare, food security, land use etc, as one package, I don’t know the answer!

EblexTweets
@MTJ_tweet It’s the proverbial three-legged stool: food security vs environmental issues vs animal welfare.

MTJ_tweet
@BlythburghPork @OliverDowding Are we doing enough, and are we doing it quickly enough, though?

akleanthous
@Martyn_Leek No, we should be tackling all of them at the same time. Research shows production efficiencies alone are not enough.

BlythburghPork
@MTJ_tweet @OliverDowding I believe the British pig industry is; pork has a low carbon footprint and we are making it better

MTJ_tweet
@BlythburghPork Pork, like poultry, has issues on the feed front, doesn’t it Alistair? How are you guys tackling that?

porkforcaterers
There are lots of on-pig-farm initiatives aimed at delivering even higher welfare and environment standards and addressing feed

britishpoultry
kg for kg indoor poultry has lowest global warming potential of any meat. Still working to improve though.

BlythburghPork
@MTJ_tweet 1st feeding GM feed to improve sustainability; 2nd improve pig efficiency through genetic selection; 3rd find…

SpaLighting
Great debate on this subject and top marks for managing to complete constructive statements when restricted to only 140 char

BlythburghPork
@MTJ_tweet …alternative protein source to soya.

GSmeeton
Coverage of WWF’s campaign about soy and the Cerrado http://ind.pn/fPMuyp

porkforcaterers
@BlythburghPork Such as UK grown peas, beans and legumes.

BlythburghPork
@MTJ_tweet Congrats on great debate, I must bow out, environment is a priority for us, but animal welfare is our primary concern

akleanthous
WWF’s Livewell report recommends healthy, sustainable diet: http://assets.wwf.org.uk/downloads/livewell_report_jan11.pdf

akleanthous
Everyone should be able to eat a little meat if they want to; like dieting, it’s a question of moderation.

MTJ_tweet
When it comes to moderation, UK is way behind other countries’ consumption levels, should we start overseas?

akleanthous
@MTJ_tweet More to the point, we’re way AHEAD of many countries’ consumption levels, too. Shouldn’t we start at home?!

OliverDowding
@MTJ_tweet @BlythburghPork the simple answer is no, we’re not doing enough, nor fast enough. Faster, even if offends some

MTJ_tweet
@akleanthous Ah, but no one seems able to identify what is the ideal consumption level? Surely that would help guide?

HertsFarmer
Good point about livestock’s role in soil management. Permanent pasture should be seen as the Northern Hemisphere’s rainforest.

thomsok
@MTJ_tweet @dalesbutchers Does anyone know how UK consumption of meat per head compared to other countries?

MTJ_tweet
@thomsok @dalesbutchers Eblex will have those figures. And valid points on ruminants. What else could convert pasture to food?

HertsFarmer
All meats are not equal. Pigs and poultry may be more efficient converters bt ruminants turn poor quality fodder into human food.

NFUStweets
@thomsok @MTJ_tweet Some meat consumption figs http://bit.ly/ijr3CW UK eats 10x more meat thn Indonesia, but half that of Denmark

thomsok
@NFUStweets @mtj_tweet interesting data about meat consumption. UK has remained quite stable which is perhaps not as expected!

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